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Author Topic: Carpentry  (Read 3037 times)
Elimae
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« on: Mar 16, 2008, 05:39 AM »

Hoya all:

Due to Tawnee's request for me to put my Carp video on, I am indeed doing it.

This is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8GRuey2wQY&feature=user

Please watch and critique however you please. I look forward to seeing all of em. Anyone may...

Please don't hurt me...O.o

EDIT: During the making of this video:

1) I had not slept
2) I am still tired
3) I was bored and just decided to test myself.
4) The ending was when I was trying to turn the stupid cam off and booched a piece.

There. Fin. :)

As I said...Please don't hurt me O.o
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 05:42 AM by Elimae » Logged

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Tawnee
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« Reply #1 on: Mar 16, 2008, 06:54 AM »

Try to ignore where I log in and don't say hoy to Eli fer, like, 8 minutes  :oops:

I enjoyed it, and was very impressed wi' Eli's speed. Less impressed wi' a couple o' other things, but we've already chatted about it.
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Sassafras
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« Reply #2 on: Mar 16, 2008, 08:31 AM »

mostly what I notice (besides your speed) is that you place stuff differently than I would and you seem to rotate through the pieces themselves instead of the way I do it... which is try to fill the hole with the piece I think it wants.

Not saying your method is good or bad... (My rating is only master) I just notice it's different.  Also, I am really really slow.
In a lot of ways it's like watching someone play tetris... which is to say it makes you itchy to do it your way instead of theirs :D
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 02:22 PM by Sassafras » Logged

~Sass
Ladyknight
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« Reply #3 on: Mar 16, 2008, 12:50 PM »

I don't currently have time to watch the vid. though i intend to later when i get a sec...but does this belong in tips and tricks instead of the mad titan?
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Neried
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« Reply #4 on: Mar 16, 2008, 01:13 PM »

Here's one of mine, not sure the rank of my alt when I made it, she's currently about 6th oceanwide right now though: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4829717473598118813&hl=en

Havent watched yours yet Eli, will soon though


Biggest early thing I'm noticing is your piece placement isn't what I'd consider 'optimal for finishing' because you rely too heavily on the more rare pieces to finish a panel.

Speed comes later on, but right now the biggest thing I think you should work on is trying to get a feel for the piece spawn and what pieces can fill what spaces.  Some helpful things to keep in mind--try to wait until you have both finishing pieces available before placing the second-to-last piece.  Working from the outside in also helps because it takes longer for the pieces to shake.

What I use when carping:  Keyboard and touchpad.  The keyboard rotation is much better than any mouse, and the touchpad means I only need to move my fingers, not my hands while I do it.  Only drawback is the touchpad can be 'sticky' at times.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 01:26 PM by Neried » Logged

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Lazylubber
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« Reply #5 on: Mar 16, 2008, 02:10 PM »

My 2 poe worth, having never seen a carp video nor achieved Ner's level of proficiency, nor delved into parts of the main forums where carp theory might be discussed...

The piece generation in carpentry is anything but random, at least until the minimum number of pieces needed to clear an entire level has been passed IMHO.  I've noticed that I've much more reliably turned in MP^10-12 when I do try to look where I think the client wants me to put pieces--i.e., the C-shaped piece usually has a C-shaped space to fill along the original border of any given hole if it shows up, the cross shape will have a space towards the middle of one side, etc., rather than trying to force a completion of a hole as quickly as possible.  Therefore, the best carpers will be those who are the best at recognizing the patterns the program uses and fitting their pieces accordingly.  This also explains the maddening tendency of the puzzle to give you the piece you really needed exactly 1 move after you had to blow the masterpiece bonus because the boards were shaking and you had no choice but to put down a mismatch.  This means that the rarer pieces aren't rarer because they are less likely to be randomly generated, but are rarer because the template algorithm used to generate the patterns for holes are less likely to use the cross shape than the L-shape.  I will admit, I've never tested Ner's assertion that building from the outside in allows more moves before the pieces shake--I had been told that was good strategy and assumed it was because it tended to cause less restriction in which pieces would fit at a given time.  Of course, since the puzzle is allegedly not random, it could be that the piece generation is geared to reward this strategy by making pieces appear in a sequence that makes it less likely that you will booch the template by building from the outside in.  However, if Ner is correct in that regard--i.e., I get 10 moves before a piece falls out if I'm at the edges but only 8 if I build towards the middle--this would further support my claim that the piece generation is non-random and a specific strategy of building from the outside in is in fact rewarded explicitly by the coding and not just by a tendency to reduce mistakes in matching the template.

Wow, that ended up being more long winded than I expected.  To summarize:

1) Piece generation appears to be non-random
2) If #1 is true, then there are specific templates to be matched (Sass's "put 'em where the client wants 'em" thought)
3) Building from the outside in appears to be the optimal strategy, whether piece generation is actually random or not, to create a MP in any given hole
4) If Ner is right about longer times between pieces falling, there is extra incentive to build from the outside in.
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Neried
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« Reply #6 on: Mar 16, 2008, 02:15 PM »

It is non-random.  The help file thingee has the breakdown of frequency, which is why I rely on those pieces to complete holes: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Carpentry in the 'tips and tricks' section.

Outside-in isn't 100% reliable, but I do think it makes the pieces take longer to shake.  I'll test it on one of my greenies later to see though.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 02:17 PM by Neried » Logged

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Fannon
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« Reply #7 on: Mar 16, 2008, 03:58 PM »

Moved to relevant board. :)
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Elimae
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« Reply #8 on: Mar 16, 2008, 07:09 PM »

Thanks Fannon *blushes*

Thanks all for the awesome tips. I'm going to vid myself carping so that you can see how well I carp when I'm AWAKE. Will post after finished!

I <3 CT! ^_~
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Lazylubber
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« Reply #9 on: Mar 16, 2008, 08:32 PM »

Aye Neried, the tutorial does list the relative frequencies of pieces, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily non-random.  For example, the most common piece (square with tag) might be assigned a value of 15%, while an uncommon piece like the straight one might be assigned a value of 2%.  It's (potentially) random in the same sense that rolling craps is random--some numbers will be generated more often because the rules that govern the generation of the numbers (take the sum of 2d6) make it inherently more likely that a 7 will come up (1/6) than a 3 (1/18).  This is, in fact, how I assumed the pieces were generated, from a weighted random generator, until I had spent time looking in detail at how the holes often seemed to fill in particular patterns and became convinced that it is in fact non-random by empirical/anecdotal evidence.
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Elimae
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« Reply #10 on: Mar 16, 2008, 08:39 PM »

Alright, this video is going to be much better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dld-yl8e0TY

Enjoy!
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Elimae
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« Reply #11 on: Mar 16, 2008, 08:41 PM »

Oh and Lazy...ye need to stop using big words around me O.<....lol


Thanks!
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Rome
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« Reply #12 on: Mar 16, 2008, 11:10 PM »

It is non-random.  The help file thingee has the breakdown of frequency, which is why I rely on those pieces to complete holes: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Carpentry in the 'tips and tricks' section.

Outside-in isn't 100% reliable, but I do think it makes the pieces take longer to shake.  I'll test it on one of my greenies later to see though.

In practice I find Shuranthae's Crazy Carp theories to be pretty damn accurate.  Generally when a rare generates, you are not likely to just get one, but to get a bunch of them, so start building appropriately.
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jarkaruus
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« Reply #13 on: Mar 17, 2008, 08:41 PM »

yeah lately I have run into Shuranthes theory alot, i counted 4 straight pieces followed by 6 X pieces and 4 more Z pieces the other night in a row which forced me to end up with a very slow hammer. In general the weighted random piece generation is good but every once in a while you hit one of these streaks that reminds you how random randomness can be.
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Dacheat
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« Reply #14 on: Mar 24, 2008, 12:10 PM »

I think my problem with carp is that I get board after the first full 17 holes.
I'm curious, do you use the scroll wheal or z,x,c, to rotate? I've found i can move and rotate pieces a lot faster with the keyboard.
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